Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Forwarded message:

A group of women are attempting to run a gathering in Adelaide at the beginning of January 2006. Sappho's Party is being touted as a camp for "lesbians raised female", with workshops, discussions, swimming, playing, a market day and other activities.

The only contact details for registration for Sappho's Party are an
email address (sapphosparty at yahoo.com.au) and a post box in South
Australia. Replies sent from this email address are signed only as 'Sappho'.

An email sent to this address from SAGE steering committee member Grace Abrams enquiring about group bookings and
whether its policy excluded trans-women received the following reply: "Re your question about who this gathering is for...yes it does exclude trans people...not from a wish to discriminate but from our own need to hold onto a few places where lesbians born female can still meet...we hope your group will respect the boundaries around this camp." No further information or registration details were sent to Abrams.

Another email sent from SAGE supporter Sammie Johnson asking if her TS girlfriend could attend received the reply: "This gathering is for lesbians raised female. I realize that sounds tough when you have a precious one who is a TS. We are feeling a desperate need to have a few gatherings simply for lesbians born and raised female for our own sanity and well being.  We hope you will understand and respect this
decision even tho it may be personally hard in your situation."
Johnson replied to the organisers saying that she would like to attend without her TS girlfriend, and was subsequently invited to attend and sent further details, explaining the event is being held on "Peramangk land in the Adelaide Hills, less than an hour from the city, next to a 150 acre conservation Park" with dormitories and tent sites available, although the exact location and maps would not be
sent until payment for registration had been received. It also stated: "This is a camp for lesbians raised female. This is women's business, girls will need to be supervised by carers. Boys may not
attend."

SAGE's Abrams questioned the legalities of the event. "This party is being held in the public arena despite the organisers stating it's a private party. When you advertise something nationally and charge an admission fee, that's a public event. And being one, as the organisers are aware, you have to comply with the law. In South Australia the relevant one is the Equal Opportunity Act 1984, which clearly states that the provision of goods and services shall not be discriminatory on the grounds of sexuality, bisexuality, or transsexuality."

On 12 December, SAGE steering committee member Tracie O'Keefe contacted the Equal Opportunities Commissioner of SA, Linda Matthews, and sent her all documents and communications relating to Sappho's Party and asked her to intervene. The matter has been passed to her deputy, Ann Burgess and SAGE will post updates as they arise.

Abrams also lambasted the organisers of Sappho's Party for their exclusionary policies on ethical grounds. "There is an expectation that in a community like ours of our own standards of ethics and
concerns - like fairness, inclusiveness, and equality," she
said. "Though there are some variance of points of views about these, they are what make our community. Our shared experience and treatment of us as a group, as the 'other' by mainstream heterosexual society teaches us about unity.

"Unfortunately, the policy of the organisers of Sappho's Party reflect some of the worst traits we see among society, which we as GLBTI people ought to recognise as wrong - after all, we have had them directed at ourselves. The same people who are displaying trans-phobia, bigotry and divisiveness would be the first to cry 'victim'
if they received this same treatment themselves. How would they like a party run for women that said 'No Lesbians'? Imagine the furore. But for them to organise an event for lesbians, but with the caveat 'No Trannies' is OK? The Sappho's Party organisers even have
gone so far this time to occlude their intentions by stipulating 'lesbians raised female' - a poor attempt, but obvious in intent while at the same time being impossible to realistically
argue.

"Well, lesbian transwomen have gone through enough and have to fight to win recognition of their gender and be awarded just the normal everyday rights of the rest of us. They have to battle bureaucracy and the discrimination and bigotry of society at large. It is just
not good enough to have to fight it within our own communities as well. Bigotry and phobias have no place among us. If our own legal system recognises that after surgery, a post-operative TS woman deserves the right to be considered legally female and be allowed the same rights as all women, how come the Sappho's Party organisers
think they know better and refuse to acknowledge this hard-won status? What proof do such people need of a person's gender? What fictitious circumstances supposedly set a person with a TS history apart from the rest of us that they must be exiled from such gatherings? It's time such fearful and prejudiced people took a good hard look at themselves."

Please join SAGE's URGENT campaign against this discriminatory event

What you can do:

1. Spread the word - please email your friends, families, colleagues, networks both in Australia and internationally to alert them to this discrimination.
2. If you are an intersex or trans lesbian, email the Sappho's Party
organisers sapphosparty at yahoo.com.au requesting that you would like to attend the event and to send you details. Let them know you are intersex or trans. Send your replies to sage -
sage3 at sageaustralia.org If you get no reply, please let us know, as according to the Equal Opportunities Commission, no reply constitutes
a rejection.
3. If you are a lesbian with an intersex or trans partner (female),
email the Sappho's Party organisers sapphosparty at yahoo.com.au requesting that you would like to attend the event with your intersex or trans partner and to send you details. Send your replies to sage - sage3 at sageaustralia.org If you get no reply, please let us know, as
according to the Equal Opportunities Commission, no reply constitutes a rejection.
4. Write to Ann Burgess, the deputy commissioner at the Equal Opportunities Commission SA to register your complaint about this discriminatory event. Post: GPO Box 464 Adelaide SA 5001. Fax (08207 2090. Or go to the website http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au/defaultwide.jsp?xcid=53 and fill out the small feedback section at the bottom of the Contact page, putting your comments under 'your question'.

This event is being held January 4-11, so it's imperative you act FAST.

Thank you for supporting SAGE's campaign in fighting for the rights of ALL lesbians to attend this gathering.

Posted: 18-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

"This kind of action further pushes the wedge between the two groups, it gives the 'female born' groups more of a reason to believe that trans really do cause trouble for them in these circumstances." kismet

BRAVO, very well said thank you

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

All being true re boundries and spaces, it is actually against the law to discriminate especially in public events such as these. If there was an event organised by hets that stated no lesbians allowed I am sure someone would do somthing about it one would hope!
Sounds like we are playing the discrimination food chain game. Homophobia and discrimination is bloody hard, lets all just get over it and stop play the white male supremist games that we have been trained with.
I remmeber when I came out the Aboriginial people would swear at me calling me a dyke and leso, just goes to show discrim teaches discrim.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Id be sad if everytime there was a lesbian event it became a perve fest for straight blokes because it's discriminatory to not include them.  

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

When I read the first post yesterday I decided to not say anything but reading the replies today prompted me..

If it is against the law to discriminate against people on the basis of sexuality and transgender status etc and therefore a public event can not restrict who enters... doesn't that mean that straight people can come to any lesbian club etc?
I mean I know some straight women do but do we really want to promote the fact that it is illegal for us to attempt to restrict entry based on people's sexuality?

I have had transgender friends over the years but I do believe that there are times when women might want to be with women who understand what it is like to grow up as a girl etc.  Just as there are times that transgender women might prefer to be with other transwomen who can better understand what they have been through and continue to go through.

As a single lesbian mother there are times that I only want to be with other lesbian mothers (who understand what it is like to raise a child in this hetrosexist world) but then sometimes I want to only be with other single lesbian mothers bc lesbian mothers with partners can't relate to what it is like doing it all on your own.

If I was to advertise an event on sofa for only single lesbian mothers would that be discrimatory?

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

kismet

I am not a trans or intersex woman myself and I am not a member of SAGE - I just wanted to forward this message on for people who DO see the injustice in this and want to do something.

Trans women ARE women - lord knows they've fought hard enough for recognition without having to also fight within their own community.

It's sickening when a group which has been oppressed becomes the oppressor.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

I have gone to work today with this issue on my mind and while I work I think a lot searching for some resolve just for my own peace of mind.

I consider myself more closely associated to trans peoples, I directly empathise with the gender ambiguity. I am not OP, although I have the need to express both aspects of my sexual gender, be they physical or spiritual.

LOL! Thank god the act does not mention straight blokes, but I believe if an irritating and disgruntled straight bloke was to use this act in a court of law he would have some standing, although fortunately the act is in place to protect minority groups, therefore that stance would work against him. This fact is assumed however, acts and policies always need some polishing.

Equal Opportunity Act 1984, which clearly states that the provision of goods and services shall not be discriminatory on the grounds of sexuality, bisexuality, or transsexuality."

There is only one way that this group can legally hold this type of function and that would be to register the group as a religious or church group. In that way they can be above the laws of the state and country when it comes to exclusive membership, much like the Catholic and Freemasons clubs.

However in saying that, this would pose a direct impetus of hypocrisy toward all those that fight for the inclusion of homosexuals and women into the ordinance and also support the exclusion of bisexual and transsexual from this particular event.

However, a prediction, that if this particular extreme separatist group did become a religious group and was challenged in the future and a discrimination laws was laid against them that would then give us credibility when dealing with other religious groups…..to fight discrimination and exclusion.

So I am settled in the fact that I chose not to isolate myself from the larger community even though it is full of all types. And hence the reason I would not attend a group that has built a wall around themselves, maintaining a separation from.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

The reality is, that if transgendered people are legally recognised as women, then they cannot be exluded- in a public event. The National Lesbian Confest- which I used to attend years ago, had the same policy of exclusion- and got taken to the ADB and was found to be discriminatory- it shut down- perhaps this is the revamping of the National Confest- but a rose, by any other name, is still a rose.

I remember too, the Lesbian Space Project, and was supportive of it until I heard about the anti-tranny stuff. Then I spent time in lots of debates with separatists. They were mostly older, second wave feminists, and their perspective was that the transgenders were men. Whilst they used the language o, "we support them for their own events", one could see the overt hate when they discussed this group. Twas my first real experience of seeing such hate- I'd never seen it in the heterosexual community I'd spent time with- it was most disappointing. None of these women were *ever* involved in transgen advocacy- even though they said they were supportive.

If anyone wants to change the policy, then get on the organising committee. The only way to change any policies is to get on committees. Just like the only way to not have Howard is to vote him out. Just stack the Committee and change it all.  

As to not having boys at this festival, gee, how threatening can a three year old boy be, who is raised in a feminist household?

Cat  

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

I sit with Kismet and Xylph on this matter. I often wonder why ftm people don't attempt to seek entry to exclusive and upmarket 'men only' clubs and see how the 'establishment' would respond.
I feel strongly that there are times when I am absolutely delighted to spend time with and support the fight for trans people but there are times when I choose to share my space with women who understand my experience of growing up and who's experience of growing up I understand. Why demand a right for the sake of it and cause even more friction in a small community. Respect works both ways - in order to demand it, it must be given. I truly believe that this works for the organisers of Sappho's party and for the trans community. The organisers have deliberately been self funding and have not sought funds from the extended LGBTIQ community for their exclusive gathering and I think this mark of respect ought to be acknowledged.  

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

hmmm, I see the language is getting stronger... Hopefully, we can conduct this discussion calmly, eh?

Mel, I do not have to belong to a group to be an advocate for it. To quote Che Guevara, "If you tremble indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine." The issues don't have to be in my backyard for me to know injustice when I see it.   Believe me, the people around me pretty much all had the same perspective in those times- transgender M2F are men- these women were 40-50 year old, so I can only conclude they are now 50-60 year old women. These notions have now pretty much disappeared- particularly with younger women. They have also disappeared *legally*- if one doesn't agree with the law, then one can join a lobby group and try to change the law, but until then, it remains illegal to discriminate on trangender status, and that's a fact.

Cat  

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

My views are based on the facts only, and do not reflect my own personal needs.

Its sad when you see society and institutions embracing the ability to see beyond the physical releams and accept gender diversity, yet those in groups directly connected with gender ambiguity cant get the wall off their face.

LOL! such a pity.

If you want to have a womins gathering invite some of your friends around. 100's if you like!

When you go public, its a public affair and governed by the laws of the state. These laws are used for our own protection must be respected else we are exploiting and mocking the things we have worked so very hard to have in place.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

thanks for the gentle prod Cat. will reframe my language now.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Mmmmm....this is a topic I remember well from my days as a lesbian separatist when there was an outcry about MTF's wanting to be included in lesbian space.

I'm with Cat on this one - the law is the law and if you don't like it, do something about it.  In the meantime, MTF's that are legally recognised as women, have every right to attend the gathering.

I feel very, very sorry for trans people - they are truly one of the most discriminated against groups in our society.

NG.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Hmm.. well in answer to your question FTM people have tried to enter mens spaces and have been equally discriminated against. I have heard of instances where an FTM tried to gain access to a gay male bar on Oxford St and was asked to leave. I guess FTMs for the most part either wouldnt bother going there, or would hide the fact that they were FTM and just go anyway.

Unfortunately many transwomen dont pass as well as transmen and so therefore could possibly be singled out more easily??

As far as Im concerned about the above matter (re discrimination against transpeople in a women only festival) their best policy would have been to not make mention of the "ban" and then probably not many transpeople would have bothered even going.. maybe a few, no more than would have gone to any other lesbian function. I figure, make a big show of it, and thats when people jump up and down..

I personally dont want to go to a female born lesbian event, even though Im kind of "on the edge" of gender so to speak. I say its their day, let them have it.. I can respect that. But still think they should have kept quiet about it.. who knows, they could have caused themselves a lot of trouble now because of their statement?

Tboi

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

The thing is, Tboi, that these things *are* mentioned because it's about ideology. I used to hear women say they wanted to be safe, that they didn't want to be raped by transgen lesbians.. These policy statements were particularly deliberate. I remember the boy child ages were under 10 only, and then sometimes under 8 or 4... I wonder where they got their developmental psychological ages that boys turned into animals past a certain age... *sigh*

Re ftm's... it is more likely that bio-men don;t feel a threat from ftm's- as in some kind of physical or sexual threat, so exclusion is less likely.

Anyone who feels discriminated against on gender status should contact the ADB or HREOC.

Cat  

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Tboi and Cat ...I dont understand why FTM's would want to be on a Lesbian Site can you clarify?  Trying to understand

Tory

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

*Dumb American enters discussion*
What exactly does  it mean to be "raised a female".
What is the definition of a woman, besides the obvious physical.
To be "raised a female* is somewhat open to ambiguity is it not.
Is it meant to mean that we were brought up to wear nice skirts and paint our nails, to bakes cakes etc
If it does, then I'm a man
Maybe I should hop on a plane, and get my ticket to the "raised female" event and then come out as a man whilst I'm there.
Imagine the screaming lol

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Tory - some FTMs don't identify as male and therefore still keep their ties to the lesbian community.

VF

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

It is simply a question of whether or not DNA verses how one feels inside, that defines gender. What some have said about transgendered people actually being supported as female or male (in this case, female) makes a difference in how they are treated. Since evaluation of the law has no bearing to this group in question, I think we should give it a bone and start realising that a person would not go to the lengths of surgery if they really were not female (male) inside. I would contrast this situation with cross dressers who have no intention of surgery. Why? Because they are intrinsically male or female through their biology.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Phoenixrisen,

I'm not sure, but I interpreted this to mean raised as a female biologically.

Posted: 19-Dec-2005