Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

hehe moocha! fallen upon deft ears! I love that! My sister collects these- i'll have to tell her that one

Cat

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Cat, I actually liked your post about the number of women (now lesbians) who were once married, have children et al...   It's extremely interesting how people can forget their past you're right..  and how we can take for granted what some have struggled so hard for..

-D

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Way off the rails now... *winks @ cat

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

here is one for your sister cat..

A friend of mine with rather big breasts told me she was going in for a 'mammoth gram.'

Mooch.. did deft mean something else in the olden days?

I dont get it?

Rabbitt

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Middle english

deft ...foolish a variant of daft.

example: at the suggestion of the mammothgram she lay her deft ears(quick and foolish to jump to conclusion), upon the mammeries,(play as in memories, the past) only to hear the pounding,(in relation to gram of weight), of a heart(nonsensical).

Must I always....... design is meant to be 80% hidden.

(not in reference to rabbits query, and no I am not saying you are a query, although quite patchuliar Miss c!)

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Oh thanx.. i had no idea... so you were using deft as a play on words..

deaf/daft... ok.. thanx..

rabbitt

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Well it would seem Mooch that not only do you have to be born a woman, but you need to be an excellent typist, great speller and an angry beaver building bridges only to other beavers of the correct beaver heritage and dimensions..

I think the separatists will become extinct due to their own singularity.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Deft DOES mean quick and skilful.

Rabs- my sister told me she had heard someone say "invitation leather", and "sense of human"... haha..  "mammoth gram" is pretty cute though... her original one used was when she worked for the government in the 70's and someone wrote down on their form as their occupation that they were a "home judy".

Cat

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

lol Rabbit,
yes, I think you are right, these people are dinosaurs.  That trans/intersex people are banned from an event is to me a useful indicator - that a party like this, where minds and hearts are so closed, would certainly not be worth attending.   Hopefully everyone will vote with their feet and it will all die a natural death???!  

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

I think the lesbians will become extinct due to their inability to get on with eachother.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

I wonder if separatist beavers roll their own dental dams..

pmsl..

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

I think this is the last post I will contribute here. I was mistakenly of the belief that cat (who's input I respect) and others (i don't) actually wanted to engage with living in the solution. I'm disappointed, clearly that is not the case as every response has continued to be just a slagging off of the women (ad hominem - sic). This attitude is little more than a negative reinstatement of problems and I think they are equally divisive.

Stereo, thanks for your constructive response. It is a good question and it is something that I think the women organisers need to be called into account for - which is exactly what I saying about the whole issue. Its better to keep the lines of communication open than use a brick barrier as a battering ram.

In my previous suggestion about a way forward I thought that ALSO, as the funding body, could have acceded to the request. This COULD potentially have been seen as a win/lose situation, but ultimately it would have left the lines of communication open and forced some accountability upon the organisers to consider ways in which they could form alliances with (& thus support) the transgender community irrespective of personal opinions. It could have been an opportunity to learn about respecting individual differences but coming together at appropriate times to fight the bigger battle. (I'm rushing and know this isn't coming across clearly.)

As I said, however, I was clearly mistaken as all I've seen is a carping negativity that appears to be interested only in blame and doesn't seem interested in finding creative solutions to move our whole diverse community forward.

Now I feel as though I've wasted a whole lot of time and energy.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Here's the philosophical/ideological approach the Lesfest/Sappho's Party people are coming from (from their 2004 submission to the Victorian ADB):

"Lesbians born female need positive affirmation in this climate of queer politics, post-modern deconstruction of gender and backlash against feminism."

Read: "queer theory killed my essentiality."

The difference between the posts who discuss only gender and the ones who discuss also class and race politics are the difference between Radical Feminism and Marxist Feminism. I note all hte organisers of these festivals are white women.

Cat

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Mel,

as I've said, the question is not one of "alliances"- that is saying that "they are not us". I am seriously engaging in this discussion- I have *always* found this to be a serious issue- I abhor discrimination. One can always opt out of any conversation whenever one wishes to.

Whenever one disagrees withsomething, it is not about "division". That is what was said all those 12 years ago or whatever it was... In fact, white people who did not believe in apartheid were provbably seen as "divisive" too. Be that as it may, I think this is more important than saying, "can't we all jst get along"... Well, yes, I am sure we all can, but not when I see discrimination- no. I have no interest in being loved in any of these perspectives- that's not my aim. My aim is to discuss something that irked me then and irks me now- just as much as it ever did.

Cat

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

On the contra Mel! In a positive light is see a great shift in our connections and unity here. I am finding the new strength of the post modern feminists very liberating. I had no idea womin felt as strongly as I do about this issue.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Hey Moocha,

How can you be so gung ho about this trans rights thing, then on the other hand, post about the death penalty thus:

"As for the simplicity of punishment my sadistic side would very much like to see more creative punishments than just death. Like the same offence perpetrated on the offender repeatedly until he begs for mercy and forgiveness. Death is just too easy."

"I would not be able to stop myself from executing severe immediate punishment"

So some people have rights and some don't ??

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Hey Mel,
I absolutely appreciate the energy and thoughtfulness you've put into your posts.  And my question re. the theorist was genuine, not meant to slag or silence.  I'm genuinely interested, and as someone how has attended (and enjoyed immensely) some of these "women born women" gatherings, and yet found their policy unneccessary and discriminatory, I'm really interested in continuing this conversation.
archer

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

My apologies to Mel and everyone as to making light of such an important issue.

It would be wonderful if there could be a solution that was negotiated and agreed upon by both parties.

Im feeling terribly guilty about participating in a discussion that I have no understanding of.

The things that I initially responded to was the 'get over it' comments, and the basic lack of argument as to why this discrimination is acceptible.

Mel if you stopped writing I would stop learning, and that would be such a great loss. (to me and others like me who dont know or understand)

Rabbitt.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

Rabbitt,  I think all of us here are still learning.  Especially since there are no hard and fast answers..

The mind is like  a parachute, dangerous when closed..

-D

Posted: 24-Dec-2005

Re: Trans and intersex women banned from national lesbian gathering

My answer to that Kismet is yes! I am a slightly more complex; I hold more than one view simultaneously. Do you expect me to be stolid and monolithic; one size does not fit all!
These are very different issues, all with differing consequences for humanity.

And as far a slaging off and seperating the people as individuals i suggest you stop it, its not doing your plight any service.

Posted: 24-Dec-2005